Talk:Rosatrice
Theory Validity With the revealing of the truth as Kyrie and Rudolf being the culprits of Rokkenjima Prime and it being shown that Rosa was not Beatrice is this theory still valid? Also I want to point out several things. First is the point #Maria says that her mother killed the others. Some may argue Maria may be referring to her bunny band collection, but believers in this theory refutes this as the bunnies appeared in the same arc (Game 6) This point does not matter because Rosa destroying the rabbits is not an event trapped in the cat box. It occured before the Rokkejima Massacre so thus they shouldn't be able to appear in any episode using this string of logic. Also the fact that if you read Ep5 they made it pretty obvious that during the Rokkenjima Massacre the Chiesters vessels were the winchesters not the ceramic bunnies that their vessels originally were. "According to this theory,Skannontrice falls against Knox' (uses unscientific methods; clues that are not present) and Van Dine's rules ("servant can't be the culprit"), and also, it cannot name the human, that killed Dr. Nanjo in game 3, because Shannon and Kanon are dead at the first Twilight nor does it explain the letter and crimes in game 5. Nevertheless, the majority still believes, that that theory is the only right." If you're gonna say these things like it's unscientific use examples. The story still follows that the "servant can't be the culprit" because Yasu is not a servant she is the head of the family disguised as a servant this is what the scene where she meets Kinzo was supposed to show. The servants are Genji, Gohda, and Kumasawa. Also the human that killed Nanjo was Yasu. The hint for this is shown through the revival of Shannon even though she was declared dead in Red she wasn't really dead just the personas were which doesn't go against any reds. Finally, game 5 is irrelevant because none of the events were ever seen by Erika so thus the knock and letter may have been a complete fantasy. Also the culprit is no one. They were all in on it and were most likely killed by the bomb since there was no definite time given as I recall. Now I'm gonna break down the answer to the murders Legend of the Golden Witch We get the red truth that *Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist! This means means Rosa was absolutely dead in the tool shed along with all the other adults. This however doesn't apply to Shannon as her "body" was the only one that was identified in the shed. Thus this red truth only applies to the five corpses in the shed. Her being dead from the First Twilight nullifies every single truth given for Legend with Rosatrice Theory. Nothing concrete I can say about the others since Turn or any other of the games are complete using the Rosatrice Theory. I will however break it even more with the fact that this theory requires Rosa finding the gold and becoming Beatrice before 1986 but we are shown the Truth of Rokkenjima which was the truth given by Bernkastel in Requiem. It shows clearly that Rosa was not Beatrice in 1986 and they were two seperate people. I really dislike this page on the wiki and even though it is popular it is not possible and I believe it should be removed from the wiki. DirkingtonStrider (talk) 19:22, January 21, 2014 (UTC) Against the new pieces added Rosa was still an unidentified corpse because of her smashed up face. Battler says that he saw her body so thus Nanjo being in the way is not a valid excuse to move it away from the red truth that the identities of all unidentified corpses are correct. Rosa was dead in the tool shed. Also Shannon and Kanon are Yasu so thus saying she didn't appear until Episode 7 means she can't be the culprit is completely incorrect. Also instead of just editing the pages actually respond this talk page it makes it much easier than for me to go through all the edits. DirkingtonStrider (talk) 21:51, January 21, 2014 (UTC) Hello, DirkingtonStrider, First, I must apologise for my rudeness. Being honest, I only came to this page recently but must admit that, although Yasu must sound perfectly solid there are a few questions. 1) Yasu is on the island, right? Also, are Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon all characters and, as such count as people? If so, then please explain why it still states 17 people in one red truth. 2) How could an employer not notice that a servant who served them for 7 years (SHannon) start taking up the role of another servant (Kanon) for another three? 3) Why is it that, only after the Gold is found, that Maria dies before the explosion? 4) Is Ange's future the true future after the events of Rokkenjima? Because she has been proven to have dies multiple times in that future (Jumping off buildings for instance with Bernkastel saying so). Perhaps Battler only appears in Ange's dillusions of a happy ending as she cannot accept the truth? 5) Why would Eva go to take the culprit's identity down to the grave if it was someone who had killed her hsband, son and entire family? It's been proven that she hates almost her entire family so why would she go through all of those lies to protect her father's illegitimate child, let alone SHANNON, WHO SHE HATED? If the killer was George, this would make sense. Sealand95 (talk) 22:20, January 21, 2014 (UTC) Sincerely, Sealand95 Hello and don't worry you weren't rude at all. 1. Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice all count as one person though when it comes to Erika's red truth this is where it gets kind of confusing, Shannon and Kanon count as two humans but one person. Beatrice is not counted since the person Beatrice isn't a human being but a witch persona. 2. This is because Yasu and Tohya's forgeries are fictional. Some people have therorized that in the true events of Rokkenjima, Kanon actually wasn't there and that he only exists as an actual person in the forgeries based off the events. 3. This is because after the gold was found Shannon kept her promise and wasn't going to continue the epitaph murders. Shannon wasn't the one who killed Rosa and Maria. In fact after the first twilight the only two people that she kills are the one's who see her alive and walking, Nanjo and George. 4. This is a question I really can't answer. Ryukishi has said that the Magic Ending was the true ending and thus Ange didn't actually jump and gave her wealth to Okonogi. This also works with the Red Truth that Ange dies in 1998 because the persona of Ange Ushiromiya dies and Yukari Kotobuki is born. 5. Because the events of Rokkenjima Prime and the forgeries are not one in the same. The killer in Rokkenjima Prime has been proven to be Kyrie and Rudolf and the person that Eva was trying to protect was actually Ange. They of course however are not the culprits in the forgeries of Rokkenjima. So Eva wasn't trying to hide Shannon's identity as the killer she was hiding Kyrie and Rudolfs identities as the killers. So even with Rosatrice it still only applies to the forgeries written by Yasu and Tohya since as I said the contents of Eva's Diary have been shown and confirm that Episode 7's Tea Party was the truth. I really hope I was able to suffeciently answer your questions 22:45, January 21, 2014 (UTC) 1. What about Yasu? Doesnt it get considered as a person? 2. The truth being Rudolf and Kyrie, I don't think so. As quoted from the wiki and from the game synopsis itself, "Bernkastel presents a scenario which she claims to be the truth of Rokkenjima Prime, but in context it's unclear whether this is indeed the case or if she is merely dressing up a malicious lie to torture Ange. Just how much of what she presents is true - if any - remains open to interpretation.". Additionally, all that was seen of Eva's diary were portraits and Shannon in a bloody room. All other evidence was with-held. Therefore, unless the full contents of the diary are revealed in red, no one can say for sure. Plus, what was the reason for these two to be culprits? 3. What proof is there that Kanon wasn't there. Rosa did recommend and get Ntsuhi and Krauss to hire him three years ago. 4. Was it ever confirmed in red that all of the first four games were question arcs? Sealand95 (talk) 23:01, January 21, 2014 (UTC) 1. No because in Episode 7 we see that the Yasu persona is the one that became Beatrice. So thus there are still only three. 2. If you're using the Rokkenjima Prime page that one is outdated and we just haven't gotten around to completely cleaning up the wiki yet. But recently it was shown through scans of the Twilight of the Golden Witch manga that the contents of Eva's Diary were the events of the Episode 7 Tea Party followed by the red truth "THIS IS ALL TRUTH". 3. That was just a theory and it is also completely possible he was there. Considering that Eva never talks about him after the tragedy of Rokkenjima and as I recall no one else saying anything about him outside of the family on those two days. The only other time he is ever around people in the world outside of Rokkenjima is when he went to Jessica's school festival. So it is completely possible he was there and the family just never caught on because they never payed enough attention to the servants and probably didn't care or he was never there in the first place. 4. No but I'm pretty sure Ryukishi has been the one to call them the question arcs and Chiru the core arcs. DirkingtonStrider (talk) 23:12, January 21, 2014 (UTC) So if Rudolh and Kyrie's murder spree is the truth then Yasu isn't the culprit and, therefore, should still be questioned about it's existence. Sealand95 (talk) 23:23, January 21, 2014 (UTC) Just because Yasu isn't the culprit of the truth doesn't mean Yasu isn't the culprit of her and Tohya's forgeries. It's like take for example Forgery No. XXX. In that one Battler was the culprit but just because he was a forgery culprit doesn't mean he was the real culprit and also doesn't mean he was the culprit of Yasu and Tohya's forgeries. Yasu = Culprit of Yasu and Tohya's Forgeries Rudolf/Kyrie = Culprits of the truth the forgeries were based on Are people still thinking about the validity of this theory is? I'll go straight to the point. There's no way Rosa will know about the baby which is Kinzo's illegitimate child. If you haven't read the manga, I suggest you should for it provides more hints. *Natsuhi said in EP 5 manga that when she pushed the servant off the cliff along with the baby, the only Ushiromiya who's in Rokkenjima during that time is Kinzo and her. Where is Rosa and Krauss, you ask? Rosa is on a trip with her friends while Krauss is in a business meeting. That's why Natsuhi's expecting Kinzo to blame her for the child's death since there's no one else to blame but her. Yet, Kinzo took this as a sign that Beatrice is freeing herself again away from his grasp. *The only one who knows Natsuhi's favorite season is Shannon. Meaning, Rosa and George knew nothing of it so it'll be impossible for George to be the Man from 19 years ago. *In the fantasy perspective, we can see that after Illusion!Kanon appeared, Nanjo died. Which implies that the only one who could've killed Nanjo is no other than Kanon who is Yasu. May I also add that the Chiester Sisters were the only furniture who acquired double vessels. Being Kinzo's winchester rifles and Maria's ceramic bunnies. Proof for this is how one of them always represent Chiester 556. *The one which Rosa threw against the wall out of anger. *The malfunctioning gun that Rudolf used in EP7 tea party in which he described as a gun that "shoots low". I really like AU culrpit theories but if you're gonna use Rosatrice as an alternative theory only to dismiss and forget about Yasu and the whole point of EP7, you need to reconsider. Uminecry (talk) 17:41, January 22, 2014 (UTC) If I may add, as an answer to Sealand's question to Ange's multiple deaths in the future, according to the Japanese Wikipedia, the two endings are considered as two separate worlds. So in case if Ange did die in the future, she may have been revived into one of these endings through magic. I know it has been established that magic does not exist in EP6, but the existence of Bernkastel makes it questionable. But one may also argue that if the magic ending contradicts the red statement this game will not have a happy ending, then the trick ending must be true ending. But Ryukishi said that that is not the case. So here is my explanation to the red given at the end of episode 7. Both Bernkastel and Lambdadelta said together that the game will not have a happy ending, but both of them are on different teams. So regardless of who wins, it won't be a good ending to the losing party. Plus the Rosatrice theory establishes that the true ending of Umineko is when Ange dies by jumping off a skyscraper after reading Eva's diary. I think this may not be the case because if it was the end of Umineko then the game should be over then. If the game is over, then there should no longer be any more colored truths. But no, after she died, she was sent to the Meta-World having been saved by Beatrice from Oblivion. So if she did die, then she was sent to purgatory. In the visual novels, the meta-world, where the tea party took place is purgatorio. So it is possible that in the When They Cry series, there exists a higher dimension, which may also be considered an after life. If you think about it Rika Furude always get sent to the sea of Kakera whenever she dies. It has also been suggested in the later arcs of Higurashi and Saikoroshi hen that the worlds were game boards, just like in Umineko. Also the whole meta fantasy scene that occurs in EP8 seem to be part of the script of the game. My only proof for this is the purple text of the narration of when Beatrice showed Ange the candy trick. As a matter of fact, this is the only colored statement in the series that isn't a dialogue. Maybe Bernkastel even became a Creator and ascended to a higher dimension than Voyagers and was the true game master all along and Battler being a game master was his role as a piece. I know I am getting a bit off topic here, but for the sake of giving a different answer to that question rather than an explanation given by the Rosatrice theory, this is the best that I could have come up with. Anyways forgive me for my rudeness and PS just to make clear, I am also not a 100% sure on my explanation either. Leslie Chow (talk) 19:46, January 22, 2014 (UTC) Deletion So I'm really considering deleting this page. No, not just because I don't believe in Rosatrice Theory at all but because it doesn't have a need to be on the wiki. It is completely unconfirmed and is nothing more than speculation. ShKanon is what is backed by the novels and manga with them confirming without a shadow of a doubt that Shannon and Kanon are one person and saying that just because it isn't in red doesn't confirm it is not a valid argument. Anyway I want to hear opinions I guess on why it should stay if you think it should. I'm not gonna do ridiculous reasoning fighting or anything like that. I want actual valid reasons on why you think this page should stay. DirkingtonStrider (talk) 19:03, February 3, 2014 (UTC)